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For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. - Doctrine and Covenants 76:23-24 (Romans 11:36)
Now here's another claim from our INC friend declaring their theory about the Nature of Christ as the Creation of the Father.
There's the Thing -
When was creation occurs?
Does the Word Creation necessarily means something that was made up out of something, or out of nothing?
If creation was used as a being Created by a supreme creator, then it doesn't make sense in using the term Firstborn.
Just because the word Creations is mentioned in some parts of the Bible, does it say something about Christ's existence as a Son of God, or as a Creation of God?
To know the right biblical answer is to elaborate on how it was used in the text and how it was meant during the time of scribing the text.
When Christ asks the Father to ease the burden he carries during his atonement, what's he asking?
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Christ simply asks to bring back the glory which he already had before he was born. How could a creature who only exists in mortal life ask God something he has if he didn't exist together with his Father?
Following the same Passage, Christ said something about the things the Father owns -
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
So, who owns everything? I could see both of them. Both the father and the Son own everything. But it depends on how you understand the text.
Here's another text about Christ as the creator -
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
How come Christ became a special Creation? Or could be a creator was also the creation?
Biblically, there's no such thing as Special Creation. The fact that Christ was God's firstborn among the creation was of course he is Next to the Father, he was a Son of God. A literal offspring. There could be no such thing as Children if our Existence is something like a toy created out of some material that could be destroyed anytime and that's the End of it. Principles of Heaven are different, we couldn't comprehend what it meant eternal if it refers to a thing that has a beginning and an ending. That doesn't help you understand the Nature of God, nor even help you understand biblical exegesis.
For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. - Doctrine and Covenants 76:23-24 (Romans 11:36)
Now here's another claim from our INC friend declaring their theory about the Nature of Christ as the Creation of the Father.
There's the Thing -
When was creation occurs?
Does the Word Creation necessarily means something that was made up out of something, or out of nothing?
If creation was used as a being Created by a supreme creator, then it doesn't make sense in using the term Firstborn.
Just because the word Creations is mentioned in some parts of the Bible, does it say something about Christ's existence as a Son of God, or as a Creation of God?
To know the right biblical answer is to elaborate on how it was used in the text and how it was meant during the time of scribing the text.
When Christ asks the Father to ease the burden he carries during his atonement, what's he asking?
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Christ simply asks to bring back the glory which he already had before he was born. How could a creature who only exists in mortal life ask God something he has if he didn't exist together with his Father?
Following the same Passage, Christ said something about the things the Father owns -
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
So, who owns everything? I could see both of them. Both the father and the Son own everything. But it depends on how you understand the text.
Here's another text about Christ as the creator -
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
How come Christ became a special Creation? Or could be a creator was also the creation?
Biblically, there's no such thing as Special Creation. The fact that Christ was God's firstborn among the creation was of course he is Next to the Father, he was a Son of God. A literal offspring. There could be no such thing as Children if our Existence is something like a toy created out of some material that could be destroyed anytime and that's the End of it. Principles of Heaven are different, we couldn't comprehend what it meant eternal if it refers to a thing that has a beginning and an ending. That doesn't help you understand the Nature of God, nor even help you understand biblical exegesis.
It was Shammahel's birthday, she's ten years old already. We wanted to have a small gathering for our little Angel who already passed away, with her siblings Jasher and Saraijah. So here's our little preparations and Aaron their friend was with us this day. His mother was in the hospital last night in labor for his new baby sister, he decides to stay for a night with us yesterday. Anyway here's our preparation with him and a celebration for his newborn Sister.
Food that was prepare for our little gathering.
Picture 1 Jasher and Saraijah with Aaron Mojica in the middle
Picture 2 Saraijah with her smile
Picture 3 Almost the same as picture 2 Jasher was Spotted
It was Shammahel's birthday, she's ten years old already. We wanted to have a small gathering for our little Angel who already passed away, with her siblings Jasher and Saraijah. So here's our little preparations and Aaron their friend was with us this day. His mother was in the hospital last night in labor for his new baby sister, he decides to stay for a night with us yesterday. Anyway here's our preparation with him and a celebration for his newborn Sister.
Food that was prepare for our little gathering.
Picture 1 Jasher and Saraijah with Aaron Mojica in the middle
Picture 2 Saraijah with her smile
Picture 3 Almost the same as picture 2 Jasher was Spotted
Alright, I think I need to make an article regarding Christ and his Premortal Existence as to who he was before he made himself known as a man in his ministry.
This article were just a byproduct of our INC friend who ask me the same question over and over. While they could accept biblical standard. So without further adieu, let go dive in -
From Shella Villamor of the INC. Commenting on my OP. Now, let's see some Segway moment.
Ok, so let's make it this way.
In the scripture, that even the INC agree that God can't or will never be seen. Rather he will manifest his spirit in some other forms, but not a human form for God is invisible or can't be seen.
So, if we are to stablish this in biblical way, then what the prophet saw during their time in conversing with God, was probably not God's physical manifestation, rather it is a different being who shows to prophets of Old in behalf of God's physical Appearance. Could be or couldn't? Let's find out.
Either the scripture could be wrongfully translated, or, if INC accepts the bible, then what the scripture says about God's appearing to Man will contradict their teachings. Unless, they would rather believe that someone was there in behalf of God's presence. Was it possible then? It does, since no man had seen God Face to face, but the prophet says different thing. See the rest of the scripture for reference below -
7 ¶ In that night did God appear unto Solomon, and said unto him, Ask what I shall give thee.
8 And Solomon said unto God, Thou hast shewed great mercy unto David my father, and hast made me to reign in his stead.
... 1 Chronicles 1:7-12
Here's the list that we should Follow to know more about Christ and his Premortal Existence and Mission.
Note:we must stablish first that the God of the Old Testament which is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is no other that Jehovah. The exact pronunciation is possibly unknown so we will stick to it either Jehovah or YHWH as the Hebrew writings shows. Anyway, I will use some other documentaries and translation to satisfy the demand of our friend here who is so aggressive in here questions with laughing and scorning on my comments. They need to grow up, but nah they're used to it as part of their religious teachings.
The videos actually save me a lot of time in responding to this article, but perhaps we could gather more information about Christ and Jehovah on their similarities or identity in General.
I think your confuse?
Another Troll from INC group, fake profile. Possibly because they wanted to hide their real identity to avoid Disciplinary for misconduct. Most of the troll actually either LDS or other religions to be fair.
Was it hard for you to accept it?
Anyway, let's make it too easy to understand for him to know what my Stand is, and I would like to use the Book of Mormon scripture to help you analyze my simple explaination.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
10 And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.
11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. [Mosiah 3:8-12]
And other thing such as this -
And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth— [Mosiah 7:27]
Also -
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. [Mosiah 15:2-5]
So, as I have made my point, don't be confused about Christ and the Father. They were different in persons and separates. Christ was called the Father because of some specific call that will be explained below. But God the Father of all our spirit as Christ stated as the Only True God (John 18:3 as the INC's common quote) is a different being. So does it mean we have two God's. The bible will explains -
You're confused already. 🤣🤣🤣
Another thing that I would like to explain so you'll be enlightened. We believe that Christ was the God of Old Testament, the Jehovah/Yahweh or the God of Israel. To make it more simple, God delegates Christ his Son to be the Father of All things. The scripture terms it as "Through him". That will be easy to understand what I stand and further explaination is below -
1. Jehovah The Eternal I AM
Obviously, the name Jehovah
When Moses conversing with God in a Burning Bush. Moses ask the Lord about his name so he could address it to Pharaoh in releasing the people from bondage. So, what did God said to Moses? -
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. - [Exodus 3:14-15]
... Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. [John 8:54-59]
One of the Reasons why Christ was accuse because of blasphemy. He never deny his existence before The Old Testament Prophet.
Basically you're saying Christ don't know what he is Saying. The Jews understood the same Scripture As Christ taught and use. So, what give?
From Different Commentaries outside of LDS teachings. Let's see how they do understand the context -
1. Before Abraham was, I AM. This speaks Abraham a creature, and our Lord the Creator; well, therefore, might he make himself greater than Abraham. I AM, is the name of God, Exodus 3:14; it speaks his self-existence; he is the First and the Last, ever the same, Re 1:8. Thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, Proverbs 8:23; John 1:1. (Matthew Henry's Commentary)
2. Jehovah is the Saviour, no other saviour beside Jehovah (Christ?).
I put a question mark on Christ since it was declared in the New Testament that he was the Saviour contradicting the Old Testament as Jehovah was the Saviour. Is it really contradicting or should we try to analyzed the text to know deep enough about the saviour. here's the list of Scripture from Old Testament declaring Jehovah was the Saviour and the New Testament saying it was Christ.
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. - Isaiah 45:17
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36; 3:16; 6:40
So, who will save everyone? Jehovah or Christ?
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4
3. Jehovah the Creator of All Things. Okay so what did the scriptures says about God the creator of all things?
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1
The Hebrew Commentary notes of this verse state about the Plural God which they use the Term Elohim. After some few Books, shows that Jehovah or YHWH was the creator of all things. Take for example this scriptures below -
15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. - 2 Kings 10:15
Now let's reveal who was this God of Creation?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[Hebrew 1:1-2]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [John 1:1-3]
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [Ephesians 3:9]
Christ was appointed to the Creation. And no wonder why our INC friends never knew about the scriptures or should I say, never understood about the message of the holy Scriptures. Plainly Christ has an existence and the Father calls him to be the creator of the world.
4. Jehovah Redeemer or Christ
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. - Psalm 49:15
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. - Hosea 13:14; Jeremiah 31:10
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. - Galatians 4:5; Titus 2:14
The Old Testament saviour and redeemer of Israel is no other than Jehovah. The New Testament Proves us to that Christ is the Redeemer at the Same time the Saviour of All.
5. Jehovah is my Shepherd (Christ).
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. [Psalm 23] Additional scripture: Isaiah 40:10-12; Jeremiah 31:10; Numbers 27:17
The Capitalize LORD mentioned in Psalm 23 suggest the name Jehovah as the Lord they knew in Old Testament. He is the Good Sheeperd as they knew, so who was this in the New Testament times?
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [John 10:1-18]
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [Hebrew 13:30]
Christ reveal himself as the Good shepherd of Israel. He knows his Sheep and even lay down his life to save his sheep.
6. Jehovah is our Judge. (Soon)
7. Jehovah First and the Last (Soon)
8. Jehovah the King of kings, Lord of lords and God of gods. The phrase King of kings wasn't used to address the God of Israel for some reason. God through the voice of the People choose to have a king to rule over Israel, though He already made a declaration that he is the Only King of Israel, but the people still wants to have a King that rule over them. (see Samuel 8)
Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: [Deuteronomy 10:17; Joshua 22:22]
The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. [Daniel 2:47]
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. [Psalm 136]
The New Testament made a good and direct address to Christ as the same Person addressed in the Old Testament. Some prophecies were clear in the New Testament, though the phrase "God of gods" is not made known to avoid confusions of Christ and God the Father as what Christ had said, greater than him, Christ was already accused as blasphemy, making himself equal with God (John 5:18; Philippians 2:5-7)
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [1 Timothy 6:14-15]
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [Revelations 17:14]
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [Revelations 19:16]
9. Jehovah Son of David or the Christ? This should be the question that every INC should ponder on. David knows no other God but Jehovah. Christ asking the multitude as to who was Christ and how was he became David's Son. See full verse.
41¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. [Matthew 22: 41-46]
See the underlined words, David Calling Lord which is Jehovah in Hebrew. See Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
(Latin osanna, Greek ὡσαννά, hōsanná) is from Hebrew הושיעה־נא, הושיעה נא hôšîʿâ-nā and related to Aramaic ܐܘܿܫܲܥܢܵܐ (ʾōshaʿnā) meaning 'save, rescue, savior'. In the Hebrew Bible it is used only in verses such as "help" or "save, I pray" (Psalms 118:25).
10. Jehovah the Holy One.
¶ Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12; Psalm 16:10; 71:22
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. - Acts 13:35-37; 3:14; Mark 1:34; Luke 4:34
Additional verses that will support Habakkuk 1:12 is found in Isaiah 9:6 that say -
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
This shows that the Child will be address as the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Isaiah's prophecy was all about the coming of the Son of God in a flesh, or will be born as a man.
Miscellaneous
Okay so here are some other relevant words used by Christ or maybe happened in his life, and the Old Testament Jehovah. Let's see what we got.
1. Whose Commandments?
Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD. - Leviticus 22:31 (see also Exodus 16:28; 20:6; Leviticus 26:3; Deuteronomy 5:10; 1 Kings 9:6; 2 Kings 17:13; Nehemiah 1:9; Proverbs 3:1; 4:4; 7:2;
And what did Christ says -
15¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15 (see also John 15:10)
Okay, so who's commandments are we going to follow here? Is it the Jehovah's or the Christ? If God is unchangeable God, then there should be one being that must/should make a commandments and not a Man Jesus as the INC claim.
2. Whose bones?
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. - Psalm 32:9-20
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. - John 19:36
It was Jehovah's bone that he kept, but it was Christ bone in real life.
3. Who was pierced?
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. - Zechariah 12:10
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. - John 19:37
Jehovah was pierced, no actually it was Christ. But yeah, could they be both the same being? It up to you to judge.
4. Who will appear again? Is it God the Father or Christ?
And Lastly, to sum up everything we'd extracted from the Holy Scripture. We, as Christian that includes INC believes that Christ will Come again.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Na hintayin yaong mapalad na pagasa at ang pagpapakita ng kaluwalhatian ng ating dakilang Dios at Tagapagligtas na si Jesucristo; - Titus 2:13 with Tagalog version
Conclusion: as my study shows, if you're a Christian who wants to know the truth, rather being manipulated by someone who taught you everything you think it is. Then possibility is you'll never know anything about truth. You'll never know about Christ as to who he was before he came in to this world. You'll never knew how he existed with God rather than a form of words which conflicts the Teachings of the Bible, and how he was sent when he doesn't exist in INC views. Christ is the same Jehovah/YHWH who protects and lead Israel to the Promise land. The God who shows himself with Moses and some other who proves that God can do all things and they live to see a testimony of his existence, in which he manifest for the first time as a man during his ministry, was questioned and sentence to death because we don't believe that he is the Lord of Host, the Anointed and the Holy One of God. This I share to you in the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
Alright, I think I need to make an article regarding Christ and his Premortal Existence as to who he was before he made himself known as a man in his ministry.
This article were just a byproduct of our INC friend who ask me the same question over and over. While they could accept biblical standard. So without further adieu, let go dive in -
From Shella Villamor of the INC. Commenting on my OP. Now, let's see some Segway moment.
Ok, so let's make it this way.
In the scripture, that even the INC agree that God can't or will never be seen. Rather he will manifest his spirit in some other forms, but not a human form for God is invisible or can't be seen.
So, if we are to stablish this in biblical way, then what the prophet saw during their time in conversing with God, was probably not God's physical manifestation, rather it is a different being who shows to prophets of Old in behalf of God's physical Appearance. Could be or couldn't? Let's find out.
Either the scripture could be wrongfully translated, or, if INC accepts the bible, then what the scripture says about God's appearing to Man will contradict their teachings. Unless, they would rather believe that someone was there in behalf of God's presence. Was it possible then? It does, since no man had seen God Face to face, but the prophet says different thing. See the rest of the scripture for reference below -
7 ¶ In that night did God appear unto Solomon, and said unto him, Ask what I shall give thee.
8 And Solomon said unto God, Thou hast shewed great mercy unto David my father, and hast made me to reign in his stead.
... 1 Chronicles 1:7-12
Here's the list that we should Follow to know more about Christ and his Premortal Existence and Mission.
Note:we must stablish first that the God of the Old Testament which is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is no other that Jehovah. The exact pronunciation is possibly unknown so we will stick to it either Jehovah or YHWH as the Hebrew writings shows. Anyway, I will use some other documentaries and translation to satisfy the demand of our friend here who is so aggressive in here questions with laughing and scorning on my comments. They need to grow up, but nah they're used to it as part of their religious teachings.
The videos actually save me a lot of time in responding to this article, but perhaps we could gather more information about Christ and Jehovah on their similarities or identity in General.
I think your confuse?
Another Troll from INC group, fake profile. Possibly because they wanted to hide their real identity to avoid Disciplinary for misconduct. Most of the troll actually either LDS or other religions to be fair.
Was it hard for you to accept it?
Anyway, let's make it too easy to understand for him to know what my Stand is, and I would like to use the Book of Mormon scripture to help you analyze my simple explaination.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
10 And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.
11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. [Mosiah 3:8-12]
And other thing such as this -
And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth— [Mosiah 7:27]
Also -
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. [Mosiah 15:2-5]
So, as I have made my point, don't be confused about Christ and the Father. They were different in persons and separates. Christ was called the Father because of some specific call that will be explained below. But God the Father of all our spirit as Christ stated as the Only True God (John 18:3 as the INC's common quote) is a different being. So does it mean we have two God's. The bible will explains -
You're confused already. 🤣🤣🤣
Another thing that I would like to explain so you'll be enlightened. We believe that Christ was the God of Old Testament, the Jehovah/Yahweh or the God of Israel. To make it more simple, God delegates Christ his Son to be the Father of All things. The scripture terms it as "Through him". That will be easy to understand what I stand and further explaination is below -
1. Jehovah The Eternal I AM
Obviously, the name Jehovah
When Moses conversing with God in a Burning Bush. Moses ask the Lord about his name so he could address it to Pharaoh in releasing the people from bondage. So, what did God said to Moses? -
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. - [Exodus 3:14-15]
... Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. [John 8:54-59]
One of the Reasons why Christ was accuse because of blasphemy. He never deny his existence before The Old Testament Prophet.
Basically you're saying Christ don't know what he is Saying. The Jews understood the same Scripture As Christ taught and use. So, what give?
From Different Commentaries outside of LDS teachings. Let's see how they do understand the context -
1. Before Abraham was, I AM. This speaks Abraham a creature, and our Lord the Creator; well, therefore, might he make himself greater than Abraham. I AM, is the name of God, Exodus 3:14; it speaks his self-existence; he is the First and the Last, ever the same, Re 1:8. Thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, Proverbs 8:23; John 1:1. (Matthew Henry's Commentary)
2. Jehovah is the Saviour, no other saviour beside Jehovah (Christ?).
I put a question mark on Christ since it was declared in the New Testament that he was the Saviour contradicting the Old Testament as Jehovah was the Saviour. Is it really contradicting or should we try to analyzed the text to know deep enough about the saviour. here's the list of Scripture from Old Testament declaring Jehovah was the Saviour and the New Testament saying it was Christ.
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. - Isaiah 45:17
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36; 3:16; 6:40
So, who will save everyone? Jehovah or Christ?
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. - Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4
3. Jehovah the Creator of All Things. Okay so what did the scriptures says about God the creator of all things?
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1
The Hebrew Commentary notes of this verse state about the Plural God which they use the Term Elohim. After some few Books, shows that Jehovah or YHWH was the creator of all things. Take for example this scriptures below -
15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. - 2 Kings 10:15
Now let's reveal who was this God of Creation?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[Hebrew 1:1-2]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [John 1:1-3]
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [Ephesians 3:9]
Christ was appointed to the Creation. And no wonder why our INC friends never knew about the scriptures or should I say, never understood about the message of the holy Scriptures. Plainly Christ has an existence and the Father calls him to be the creator of the world.
4. Jehovah Redeemer or Christ
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. - Psalm 49:15
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. - Hosea 13:14; Jeremiah 31:10
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. - Galatians 4:5; Titus 2:14
The Old Testament saviour and redeemer of Israel is no other than Jehovah. The New Testament Proves us to that Christ is the Redeemer at the Same time the Saviour of All.
5. Jehovah is my Shepherd (Christ).
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. [Psalm 23] Additional scripture: Isaiah 40:10-12; Jeremiah 31:10; Numbers 27:17
The Capitalize LORD mentioned in Psalm 23 suggest the name Jehovah as the Lord they knew in Old Testament. He is the Good Sheeperd as they knew, so who was this in the New Testament times?
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [John 10:1-18]
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [Hebrew 13:30]
Christ reveal himself as the Good shepherd of Israel. He knows his Sheep and even lay down his life to save his sheep.
6. Jehovah is our Judge. (Soon)
7. Jehovah First and the Last (Soon)
8. Jehovah the King of kings, Lord of lords and God of gods. The phrase King of kings wasn't used to address the God of Israel for some reason. God through the voice of the People choose to have a king to rule over Israel, though He already made a declaration that he is the Only King of Israel, but the people still wants to have a King that rule over them. (see Samuel 8)
Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: [Deuteronomy 10:17; Joshua 22:22]
The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. [Daniel 2:47]
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. [Psalm 136]
The New Testament made a good and direct address to Christ as the same Person addressed in the Old Testament. Some prophecies were clear in the New Testament, though the phrase "God of gods" is not made known to avoid confusions of Christ and God the Father as what Christ had said, greater than him, Christ was already accused as blasphemy, making himself equal with God (John 5:18; Philippians 2:5-7)
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [1 Timothy 6:14-15]
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [Revelations 17:14]
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [Revelations 19:16]
9. Jehovah Son of David or the Christ? This should be the question that every INC should ponder on. David knows no other God but Jehovah. Christ asking the multitude as to who was Christ and how was he became David's Son. See full verse.
41¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. [Matthew 22: 41-46]
See the underlined words, David Calling Lord which is Jehovah in Hebrew. See Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
(Latin osanna, Greek ὡσαννά, hōsanná) is from Hebrew הושיעה־נא, הושיעה נא hôšîʿâ-nā and related to Aramaic ܐܘܿܫܲܥܢܵܐ (ʾōshaʿnā) meaning 'save, rescue, savior'. In the Hebrew Bible it is used only in verses such as "help" or "save, I pray" (Psalms 118:25).
10. Jehovah the Holy One.
¶ Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. - Habakkuk 1:12; Psalm 16:10; 71:22
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. - Acts 13:35-37; 3:14; Mark 1:34; Luke 4:34
Additional verses that will support Habakkuk 1:12 is found in Isaiah 9:6 that say -
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
This shows that the Child will be address as the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Isaiah's prophecy was all about the coming of the Son of God in a flesh, or will be born as a man.
Miscellaneous
Okay so here are some other relevant words used by Christ or maybe happened in his life, and the Old Testament Jehovah. Let's see what we got.
1. Whose Commandments?
Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD. - Leviticus 22:31 (see also Exodus 16:28; 20:6; Leviticus 26:3; Deuteronomy 5:10; 1 Kings 9:6; 2 Kings 17:13; Nehemiah 1:9; Proverbs 3:1; 4:4; 7:2;
And what did Christ says -
15¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. - John 14:15 (see also John 15:10)
Okay, so who's commandments are we going to follow here? Is it the Jehovah's or the Christ? If God is unchangeable God, then there should be one being that must/should make a commandments and not a Man Jesus as the INC claim.
2. Whose bones?
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. - Psalm 32:9-20
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. - John 19:36
It was Jehovah's bone that he kept, but it was Christ bone in real life.
3. Who was pierced?
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. - Zechariah 12:10
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. - John 19:37
Jehovah was pierced, no actually it was Christ. But yeah, could they be both the same being? It up to you to judge.
4. Who will appear again? Is it God the Father or Christ?
And Lastly, to sum up everything we'd extracted from the Holy Scripture. We, as Christian that includes INC believes that Christ will Come again.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Na hintayin yaong mapalad na pagasa at ang pagpapakita ng kaluwalhatian ng ating dakilang Dios at Tagapagligtas na si Jesucristo; - Titus 2:13 with Tagalog version
Conclusion: as my study shows, if you're a Christian who wants to know the truth, rather being manipulated by someone who taught you everything you think it is. Then possibility is you'll never know anything about truth. You'll never know about Christ as to who he was before he came in to this world. You'll never knew how he existed with God rather than a form of words which conflicts the Teachings of the Bible, and how he was sent when he doesn't exist in INC views. Christ is the same Jehovah/YHWH who protects and lead Israel to the Promise land. The God who shows himself with Moses and some other who proves that God can do all things and they live to see a testimony of his existence, in which he manifest for the first time as a man during his ministry, was questioned and sentence to death because we don't believe that he is the Lord of Host, the Anointed and the Holy One of God. This I share to you in the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
From one of our INC friend who love to collect stuff declaring his own bigoted victory. So childish, whenever this guy posted something on his wall pretending he did accomplished something great in the eyes of many not minding he fail to understand the case. So much of braggart.
Posted in his Wall. He think I got angry on his OP without even answering my comment.
Who knows himself a braggart, let him fear this, for it will come to pass that every braggart shall be found an ass.
- William Shakespeare
The Complete Works
Below is the post of his Original OP where he mean that I got angry of his Post. It was actually posted in the Official Group "The Restored Gospel: Latter-day Saints and Iglesia Ni Christo Discussion.
So, the Question was. Did I ever angry on this senseless Post? And if I was angry with it, where's your proof?
Let's find out inside the comment section and see what did I post?
I posted this Question as my comments. It was left unanswered. One of the INC group member laugh at it.
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. - Proverbs 15:2
So, where's the answer to this comment? He never answered the question straight rather running away on it, with his arrogance.
One of the LDS friend stalk his account and found out something different. The place where he lived were assigned by sister missionaries. He tries to open it up to him but he never responded, so I did call him out and see if we could get the truth(Katotohan) to him. But it ended up in unhealthy comments. He throws rude words that I couldn't help but delete some of it to avoid contention, but he never stop flooding the comments area.
Until then, the question was left unanswered and to think the Ang Katutuhanan tells the truth remains untold. I could conclude this Guys only love to roam around mislead people. Thank you and have a nice day.
From one of our INC friend who love to collect stuff declaring his own bigoted victory. So childish, whenever this guy posted something on his wall pretending he did accomplished something great in the eyes of many not minding he fail to understand the case. So much of braggart.
Posted in his Wall. He think I got angry on his OP without even answering my comment.
Who knows himself a braggart, let him fear this, for it will come to pass that every braggart shall be found an ass.
- William Shakespeare
The Complete Works
Below is the post of his Original OP where he mean that I got angry of his Post. It was actually posted in the Official Group "The Restored Gospel: Latter-day Saints and Iglesia Ni Christo Discussion.
So, the Question was. Did I ever angry on this senseless Post? And if I was angry with it, where's your proof?
Let's find out inside the comment section and see what did I post?
I posted this Question as my comments. It was left unanswered. One of the INC group member laugh at it.
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. - Proverbs 15:2
So, where's the answer to this comment? He never answered the question straight rather running away on it, with his arrogance.
One of the LDS friend stalk his account and found out something different. The place where he lived were assigned by sister missionaries. He tries to open it up to him but he never responded, so I did call him out and see if we could get the truth(Katotohan) to him. But it ended up in unhealthy comments. He throws rude words that I couldn't help but delete some of it to avoid contention, but he never stop flooding the comments area.
Until then, the question was left unanswered and to think the Ang Katutuhanan tells the truth remains untold. I could conclude this Guys only love to roam around mislead people. Thank you and have a nice day.
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