From an INC Fanatics that try hard to be a cool antagonist. Let me get this as straight as it could Job Bautista.
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| This is a post from one of the supposed antagonists who can't keep up the discussion. |
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
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| His attempt on diverting the topic and declaring a winner by just simply using a term irrelevant to the main topic. Here he thinks as an absolute value of "ὁ Θεὸς" has the same meaning as the Tetragrammaton, which obviously addresses directly to the Father. Yes of Course since He (YHWH) is God. And yet the subject is, how are you going to reconcile that same usage to Christ in Hebrews 1:8 which you (INC) believe that it is not his title. So, back to my question, how are you gonna use that in our subject? |
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
3 εἰ δὲ καὶ ἔστιν κεκαλυμμένον τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ἡμῶν, ἐν τοῖς ἀπολλυμένοις ἐστὶν κεκαλυμμένον,
4 ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου ἐτύφλωσεν τὰ νοήματα τῶν ἀπίστων εἰς τὸ μὴ αὐγάσαι τὸν φωτισμὸν τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τῆς δόξης τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Nestle 1904
The underlined Greek which is (ὁ θεὸς) ho theos has nothing to do with Christ or the Father. And yet the usage was clear. So, did I define you as uneducated about your own ideology that you can't define? It perfectly does.
And back to the topic -
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| Here's the Greek to English from Hebrews 1:8 |
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| And the part where he insisted that I'm supposed to be wrong. Seriously bro? |
Jerry Nuñez Bustillo mag basa ka tagalog na yan , huwag puro bunganga ang pinangbabasa mo
Maraming Beses na nating nakikita at naririnig na palaging ginagamit ang mga talata ng Hebreo 1:8 para patunayan na Dios daw talaga si Cristo.Sapagkat mismo ang AMA daw ang tumawag na Dios sa anak. .narito ang nilalaman ng talata.
Hebreo 1:8 “ Nguni't tungkol sa Anak ay sinasabi, ANG IYONG LUKLUKAN, OH DIOS, ay magpakailan man; At ang setro ng katuwiran ay siyang setro ng iyong kaharian.”
And look at here, he's trying to bend the topic by his own ideology that he can't even stand. I have ask you already to present your side about your said understanding on "Ho Theos" as God the Father in Hebrews 1:8, and there you are trying to make a good diversion pretending you know something. Where's your laughing now? And where's your presentation of the Text? My presentation is simple "Ho Theos" simply means "O God" in Hebrews 1:8 and you're trying to make fun of it by simply grabbing something not even relevant to the subject. Was this everything your poor ministers taught you?
ang pinaka Key word nila jan ay "Tungkol sa anak ay sinabi" Ganyan agad mag haka haka karamihan para palabasin na Dios talaga si Cristo.Ganito ang payo ng Biblia :
Yes, exactly. So why are you using the term "God the Father" addressing the Sons in Hebrews 1:8 since we're talking about the Son of God? Did you catch it already? Or maybe no, because of your poor understanding.
Roma 12:16 “ Mangagkaisa kayo ng pagiisip. Huwag ninyong ilagak ang inyong pagiisip sa mga bagay na kapalaluan, kundi makiayon kayo sa mga bagay na may kapakumbabaan. Huwag kayong mga pantas sa inyong sariling mga haka. ”
"But of the Son he says, `GOD IS YOUR THRONE forever and ever! And a righteous sceptre is the sceptre of his kingdom! `" (Goodspeed)Hebrews 1:8 "He says of the Son, `GOD IS THY THRONE for ever and ever, thy royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity`." ( Moffat Translation)
This has been the oldest Goodies that most INC use as the correct translation of their Unitarian teachings. The question is, can you sustain it? How many INC ever read the Godspeed and Moffats translation that could testify that it is the actual translation of biblical text? No one, of course. They don't use that scripture but rather pick up just one of it here and another one there to satisfy their doctrine.
Maliwanag ang banggit sa mga verse na ito: “ GOD IS YOUR THRONE” o “GOD IS THY THRONE” na sa tagalog ay “ANG DIYOS AY IYONG LUKLUKAN” Mas lalong pinalinaw sa atin.
Of Course, if that's what your ministers say using your own selected bible version to satisfy the doctrine of INC. I agree, why not?
Alam po ba kaya nila na ang talatang yan ay quoted po mula sa AWIT 45:6.? Dapat nating malaman na ang sinasabi sa Hebreo 1:8 ay isang propesiya o hula tungkol sa pagdating ng Mesias na mababasa sa Lumang Tipan na sinipi mula sa Mga Awit 45:6 na nagsasabi ng ganito: Ating pong basahin ang nasabing talata sa Bibliang isinalin ng mga Judio sa panahon natin ngayon:Psalms 45:6 "THY THRONE, GIVEN OF GOD, endureth for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Jewish Publications Society of America Translation )
And there are the excuses, using the same passage as quoted in the old testament with a poor textual understanding. Christ mostly quoted the old testament which is his own words and the Apostles even Paul knows how this was addressed and to whom it was addressed. You're simply telling me that Paul as the Apostle to the Gentile is wrong in his understanding using the text by quoting the Old Testament. Can you justify that?
Maliwanag na sinasabi sa talatang iyan na isinalin ng mga Judio na: “ THY THRONE, GIVEN OF GOD” o sa Filipino ay “ANG IYONG LUKLUKAN, BIGAY NG DIYOS”
Come again? "Isinalin ng mga Judio"? From what translation or version was that? Does this mean you don't know where it was translated or any biblical background? Should I educate you about that?
Malinaw na malinaw po na "ANG IYONG LUKLUKAN AY BIGAY NG DIOS?."At ito ay binigyang linaw naman sa unahan ng kapitulo na ang Diyos ay magbibigay ng kaniyang kaharian sa isang HARI.
Just as I have said, if that's what your minister told you so, then it was best for you. It could be the best translation for your INC ideology. The question remains, does he have the right to simply select only the best part for your doctrine or just use it for INC's sake? See how you fail?
Some of the screenshots were deleted accidentally from my phone so I have to dig it somewhere in my History or in the Group History. I'll be back for part 2 if I got some of it.
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| Okay, so here's some childish OP. I don't know how this guy think of us as LDS. Seems like they misunderstood Joseph Smiths Calling VS as perfect man a prophet. Did he said anything he sinless? |
So, what is it we are looking for? What is the answer that satisfy the question? What is supposed to be discussed in such senseless OP? We as humans believe everyone makes plenty of mistakes and even Joseph Smith is not good about it. But let's just get to the answer using a scriptural statement rather than taking the bait. This wouldn't lead us somewhere, rather it just leads us to become childish.
Below are the list of quotes that possibly a good response, unless you don't like it -
Mormon 9:31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.
...Who, among all the Saints in these last days can consider himself as good as our Lord? Who is as perfect? Who is as pure? Who is as holy as He was? Are they to be found? He never transgressed or broke a commandment or law of heaven—no deceit was in His mouth, neither was guile found in His heart. And yet one that ate with Him, who had often drunk of the same cup, was the first to lift up his heel against Him. Where is one like Christ? He cannot be found on earth....
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)
And here's some Biblical Passage -
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
The quote goes on. These are but just few quotes about LDS teachings on the life of Joseph. To think Joseph Smith Jr. was as just as Christ or sinless, isn't a constructive criticism. Why bother opening up something not even close to reality?
Every sins that can be acknowledged of course everyone can easily acknowledge it. But there's not point in it by just looking up a sin and just a sin nothing more, nothing less. Why would everyone do that? Moses, David, Solomon, Abraham, Job and so on, were normal people who sinned throughout their lives. Do we need to acknowledge it?
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| Iba Philippines Stake Conference. Scheduled on March 25-26, 2023 |
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| Iba Philippine Stake Conference Scheduled on March 25-26, 2023 |
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| Took a picture while heading to stake center. But I never got there for some health reason. |
Common Concern: Thief on the Cross
¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
It's unclear as to how the thief was forgiven in an instant with Christ declaring the thief to be with him in Paradise. Although Christ can forgive sins and heals our sickened soul, it remained a question to some as to how was it possible that way.
My straight answer is, God knows the desire of our hearts. He knows that when in times we realized the wrong thing and wanted to change but had no opportunity to do so, or perhaps we never had any chance after some circumstances. He knows what's within us and of course as a loving God, He could do whatever He Could to save His children through Christ's Grace.
Consider this from the life of Joseph Smith after the vision of the Celestial Kingdom with his brother Alvin -
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. - Doctrine and Covenants 137:5-10
Do we still question God and his ways? Here is from the life of Christ, Matthew 9 -
And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
We never knew what the sick man did or what kind of sin he had. But Christ knows him, though he couldn't speak up of his desire, yet Christ knows his soul.
O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Another good example of how God judge us according to our desire is found in this passage in Jeremiah 17:10, which says this
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
To sum up, we never knew how God judge us and we never knew the desire of one man's heart. Only God knows you or me or everyone else that you know, even if you think someone can't do righteous deeds but God knows and the only being can judge them.
Question: So, is it possible to sin a little and end up confessing since God knows our desire?
Yes, we do sin, we are not perfect and day by day we encounter different kinds of challenges. But there's no such excuse for doing goodness or righteousness. Just as I had said, God knows our desire, and if we intend to do good things then why do it rationally on the opposite? If our intention is to do bad and may feel to have witnessed the love of God in doing good things, it would be better that way instead of desiring to do good things after every bad decision through procrastination.
27 And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance;
28 But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering;
29 Having faith on the Lord; having a hope that ye shall receive eternal life; having the love of God always in your hearts, that ye may be lifted up at the last day and enter into his rest.
30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death. Alma 13:27-30
There is no such thing as a middle ground, if your intention is to do good things, then stay true to it. We should remember that God Judge us through the desire of our hearts, understanding minds and good works.
Brethren, within the confines of whatever circumstances we find ourselves, we will always have the right to choose.
Next, with the right of choice comes the responsibility to choose. We cannot be neutral; there is no middle ground. The Lord knows this; Lucifer knows this. As long as we live upon this earth, Lucifer and his hosts will never abandon the hope of claiming our souls. - Thomas S. Monson (The Three Rs of Choice)
The simplest solution is, to do the right thing and let God do his part. We never knew how the thief on the cross receive his forgiveness, but we knew he was left there in Paradise with some other saints waiting for the final judgements. We never knew and we couldn't tell God's mind about this matter, the only thing we can do is to make the right choices.
25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
In conclusion, whether the thief was saved or not, the main concern is to repent and have the desire to change. We don't know the full story of the thief before he was hung on the cross on the side of Christ. There could be a repentance process made or maybe no. Maybe some effort to learn about Christ and admitted his faults or something else we never know about. One thing is sure enough, Christ will forgive sins and will save us through his grace as long as we do our part.
- Jerry N. Bustillo
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| Thumbs down! |
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| Let us follow Jesus Christ with faith in every footstep. We need to serve the Lord and serve one another. We need to strengthen ourselves spiritually by keeping and honoring our covenants. We should not lose the sense of urgency to keep the commandments. Follow Jesus Christ with Footsteps of Faith - M. Russell Ballard |
Was there a Heavenly Mother? Most antagonists try so hard to find a good criticism in regards to some doctrine that has been taught by the church, in that they could only find it not biblical or foreign to Christianity which leads them to conclude cult teachings of the LDS church. But the question is clear, was there a Mother in Heaven? Were there any documents found to support Her existence?
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| A post by JM Janice Barlow From a group "Somewhat Civil Christian/LDS Discussions" Which is owned and run by non-LDS antagonists. More likely a criticism rather than a discussion. |
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| I haven't planned in escaping anything on your claim. Do you think so? I ask you to have your standing regarding this topic, and yet you just posted senseless comments and screenshot that you don't even know how it was said. |
Ok, so let's get started. This topic is also found in Gospel Topics Essays titled Mother in Heaven. You can check out to learn about it.
1. How did this Heavenly Mother theory begin? What's the proof?
This is not just the first time we engage in this study. Here is a list of an outside source that talks about the nature or existence of the Mother in Heaven -
These were just sources that talk about the same topic. It's not necessarily the same subject or study, but rather I just showing this article to help us understand that this is not just an LDS theology or doctrine, rather it already exists in some other teachings. It may be in or outside Christendom, but the point here was, it was there already before the LDS introduce its Teachings. You may wonder, did I consider this study as accurately Biblical? No, I don't, but as I have said always in this post, I remain neutral, my ground is to stay in the middle of the study whether it is authentic or not. I don't want the reader to think that I am doing this just in my side of opinion, but rather I am doing this to make it known that somehow this certain study does exist not just in LDS teachings but rather anciently.
So, I will include some of it here and let's consider some common ground in our study about it. So here's the list of what I do think will help us learn about the nature of God and the Maternal being we call Mother in Heaven -
2. Does the Heavenly Mother Theory Sustainable?
There's no evidence that it was taught by former prophets or perhaps Joseph Smith made any attempt to discuss the nature of Heavenly Mother. However, though uncertain, the scriptures have fragments about this topic, and most leaders addressed Heavenly Father and Mother as Heavenly Parents.
Take for example the Archontics, who have this kind of belief -
The Archontics held that there were Seven Heavens, ruled by the Demiurge surrounded by Archons begotten by him, who are the jailers of the souls. In the eighth heaven dwells the supreme Mother of light. (Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archontics)
Of course, we can't sustain that. First, no biblical records. Second, Archontics were separatists from the teaching of Early Christianity, which means, most of their practices were against the former.
But the question remains, does the Heavenly Mother Theory voidable just because others are teaching it against biblical records? My straight answer is, No. First of all, we don't believe in a close canon, we believe Revelation is necessary for every dispensation of time. This means, some things need to be revealed from time to time, so the mysteries will be unfolded.
3. Biblically, where can you find that?
To be fair, there's no exact word for word that we could find as exactly as "Heavenly Mother". Not in any standard works, but rather understanding textual exegesis to learn about its existence, for instance, during the creation, the scripture gives us a hint about the nature of God and gender.
Genesis 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So, to assume God or gods (as how it was said) were supposed to be without gender, then there's no reason to create a being in their image that has a difference. That scripture alone remains a mystery of God's nature.
Also, other scripture addresses us that we are God's literal offspring. Here's part of it -
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. - Acts 17:28-29
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| And suppose it's a false notion, then can you give me the right biblical standards that it isn't false? If you can provide it then let's conclude. If not, so what's the use of bubbling with your ideology? |
The Word was written in Genitive Masculine Singular "Τοῦ γένος" or "His offspring", and in other simplest terms, "His Children". In Merriam-Webster Dictionary Offspring is meant by this (The first and second Meaning were identical) -
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| Definition (1 a) from Merriam-Webster Dictionary. |
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| Definition (1 b) of the same source. With the words "born of a Parents". |
So, we have the definitions and the bible says it as literally as it is. So the question will be -
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| A question that doesn't have any answers. How are you gonna reconcile to that Eliza? |
I believe he is the Father of my spirit and the Father of your spirit. I believe we were born to him and to our mother in heaven. I do not know the process, but I do know how we are born to our fathers and mothers in this earth and that is the way I think about it. I feel that there is a similar relationship between him and me that I feel toward my earthly father, or that I did feel toward him when he was here. I have always thought about God in this way. I believe I was born to him as a spirit child in the spirit world before I was born here, and what I say about myself—and you will pardon the personal reference—I feel about every other human soul that lives in the earth. I believe we all lived with him before we came here.
So it's fair enough, we don't know how it works or how they got us as their spirit children, but one thing is certain, we have Heavenly Parents.
4. Alright, so you LDS people worship also the Mother in Heaven just like praying to her same as How do you offer a prayer to Heavenly Father?
Our belief regarding this matter is neutral as I have said since we don't have any official declaration or notices that say anything about worshipping the Mother in Heaven. Then we all just stick to what had been written. Gordon B. Hinckley made the following statement during his talk titled "Daughters of God". He says this -
And now, speaking of prayer, I touch on another matter. Last April, I spoke to the regional representatives of the Church, as I have done for a number of years on each occasion when they have come for general conference. These are training meetings where the regional representatives get information that they may carry with them across the Church. There is nothing secret or hidden about what is done there.
However, recently I heard that someone had secured a copy of my talk, looking upon that as a singular accomplishment, as if it had been given in a secret and sinister manner, designed to keep it from the world. This is nonsense.
I am therefore on this occasion going to take the liberty of rereading that portion of the talk which pertains to a matter over which some few women of the Church appear to be greatly exercised. I give it to all, in this forum, because of the activities of a few who evidently are seeking to lead others in the paths which they are following. I speak of those who advocate the offering of prayers to our Mother in Heaven. I quote from that earlier address:
“This [practice] began in private prayer and is beginning to spread to prayers offered in some of our meetings.
“It was Eliza R. Snow who wrote the words: ‘Truth is reason; truth eternal / Tells me I’ve a mother there.’ (Hymns, 1985, no. 292.)
“It has been said that the Prophet Joseph Smith made no correction to what Sister Snow had written. Therefore, we have a Mother in Heaven. Therefore, [some assume] that we may appropriately pray to her.
“Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me.
“However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven.
“The Lord Jesus Christ set the pattern for our prayers. In the Sermon on the Mount, He declared:
‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.’ Matthew 6:9 italics added here and in following references.)
“When the resurrected Lord appeared to the Nephites and taught them, He said: ‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.’ 3 Nephi 13:9
“While He was among them, He further taught them by example and precept concerning this practice. The record states that ‘He himself also knelt upon the earth; and behold he prayed unto the Father, and the things which he prayed cannot be written, and the multitude did bear record who heard him.’ 3 Ne. 17:15
“Furthermore, He said: ‘Pray in your families unto the Father, always in my name, that your wives and your children may be blessed.’ 3 Ne. 18:21
“On another occasion, ‘Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
“‘Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.
“‘Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.’ 3 Ne. 19:19–21
“And so I might continue with other specific instances from the scripture. Search as I have, I find nowhere in the standard works an account where Jesus prayed other than to His Father in Heaven or where He instructed the people to pray other than to His Father in Heaven.
“I have looked in vain for any instance where any President of the Church, from Joseph Smith to Ezra Taft Benson, has offered a prayer to ‘our Mother in Heaven.’
“I suppose those … who use this expression and who try to further its use are well-meaning, but they are misguided. The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her.”
That is the end of the quotation from the talk I gave earlier, to which I may add that none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.
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| From the Hymn titled "O My Father" |
